"Personal defense weapon" Knight's Armament Co. PDW

August 14 2014 53

In recent years, there has been an active development of various shooting systems of the PDW class (Personal Defense Weapon - “Personal weapon self-defense "). Weapons with relatively small dimensions and relatively high firepower are of interest to a wide range of customers. The main operators of such weapons are the crews of combat vehicles, commanders and other military personnel or security forces who are unable to effectively use "full-size" machine guns or rifles. The concept of PDW has so far gained popularity, and most large manufacturers of small arms have already “noted” in this field.

The American company Knight's Armament Co. was no exception. (KAC), known for its original designs. The first studies related to the concept of PDW were made by KAC back in the eighties, but then all the work stopped at the stage of studying the prospects of a new weapon. In the future, KAC several times returned to the idea of creating its own version of PDW, but this weapon did not have much success and did not come out of the test stage. The company presented the first “full-fledged” project of its PDW only in 2006 year. The new weapon has received a straightforward name that fully reveals its essence - KAC PDW.

Characteristics of the KAC PDW system do not allow unambiguously to classify it as a submachine gun or automatic rifle. Nevertheless, some features of this weapon allow us to attribute it to both submachine guns and machine guns. But due to external similarities and some features for convenience, we will call KAC PDW an automatic machine, not forgetting, however, that this rifle system is a “Personal weapon of self-defense”.

A characteristic feature of almost all types of weapons class PDW are original ammunition, which is a "hybrid" of the pistol and intermediate cartridge. In order to ensure the required characteristics of fire in combination with small dimensions and weight, gunsmiths reduce the caliber of bullets, while maintaining a relatively high initial velocity and muzzle energy. For the KAC PDW, a new original cartridge was also chosen - 6x35 mm TSWG.

The 6x35 mm TSWG cartridge was developed in the first half of the 2000s by Hornady. This ammunition has a relatively short bottle-shaped sleeve, 35 mm long, made of brass. The cartridge with a total weight of 10,1 g is equipped with a 6 mm caliber bullet with a weight of 4,2 g. According to some data, the TSWG cartridge in its basic configuration is equipped with an expansive action lead shell bullet. Due to this, with a small caliber should provide a high lethality. At distances up to 200-300, the cartridge 6х35 mm TSWG is not inferior to the standard NATO intermediate ammunition 5,56x45 mm for a number of characteristics.

The KAC PDW was originally designed for use with the TSWG cartridge, and its design is based on some technical solutions typical of US automatic weapons. So, the receiver of the weapon is divided into two parts, as on the M16 and M4 rifles. In the upper part of the box is mounted the barrel, and also the shutter mechanisms are located. At the bottom there is a trigger mechanism and the receiving shaft of the store. The lower part of the receiver is made on the basis of the corresponding details rifle M16.

Like the bulk of modern automata KAC PDW uses vapor-automatic. Above the barrel there are two venting tubes and two gas pistons. According to some reports, two gas engines are used to increase the reliability of automation when using a relatively low-power cartridge, giving a small amount of powder gases.

The bolt carrier and return spring are located in the upper part of the receiver. An interesting feature of the KAC PDW is some features that are not typical of American automatic rifles, but of Soviet / Russian weapons. So, the barrel locking of this weapon takes place by turning the bolt, the design of which greatly resembles the corresponding units of Kalashnikov assault rifles. The AK series weapon also recalls the location of the return spring: it is completely hidden inside the receiver.

The KAC PDW is equipped with a rifled barrel with a length of 10 or 8 inches (254 and 203,2 mm). On the outer surface of the trunk there are numerous hemispherical notches. It is argued that this allows the barrel to be lightened, as well as to improve its cooling during firing. A muzzle compensator is installed on the barrel, designed specifically for the KAC PDW, taking into account the characteristics of the 6x35 mm TSWG cartridge.

The trigger mechanism is located at the bottom of the receiver. It allows you to fire both single shots and bursts. Flags of the translator of fire are on both sides of the receiver, above the pistol grip and are designed to switch with your thumb. The translator of fire has three positions: blocking mechanisms, single and automatic fire.

"Personal defense weapon" Knight's Armament Co. PDW

For ammunition automatic machine Knight's Armament Co. PDW uses original detachable box magazines on 30 cartridges. By design, they resemble the standard NATO shops for 5,56x45 mm cartridges, but are noticeably smaller. The store is placed in the receiving shaft of the machine, also resembling those used on American automatic rifles. Shop latch unified with existing weapons.

Placing all the units inside the receiver allowed the butt of the weapon to be collapsible. If necessary, it swivels and fits along the right side of the machine. The location of the triangular frame butt does not interfere with the use of weapons or the release of spent cartridges.

In accordance with recent trends, the KAC PDW machine has several universal Picatinny rail, allowing it to be equipped with various additional equipment. So, on the upper surface of the weapon there is a bar almost the length of the receiver. In the basic configuration on this bar is set standard diopter sight and front sight. If necessary, they can be replaced by any other sighting device that allows installation on a universal mount.

Machine KAC PDW has no pronounced forearm. Instead, the weapon has a forward-drilled perforated barrel casing, which is integral with the receiver. On the side surfaces of this casing, two Picatinny rails are installed, which can be covered with special plastic covers. The fourth bar is located under the barrel cover and can also be closed with a lid. On most of the published images, the machine is equipped with a front "tactical" handle mounted on the bottom bar.

"Personal defense weapon" KAC PDW in appearance, purpose and some characteristics like automatic rifles and machine guns. At the same time it has much smaller dimensions and weight. So, the length of the KAC PDW with a 10-inch barrel with a folded butt is equal to 495 mm. When the stock is folded, the length exceeds 730 mm. Using a barrel with a length of 8 inches further reduces the size of the weapon.

KAC PDW (10-inch barrel) without ammunition weighs only 1,95 kg. A closed magazine increases the weight of the weapon by about 400 g. Thus, the machine gun with 3-4 magazine ammunition weighs no more than 3,5-4 kg, which in combination with small dimensions makes it easy to carry and use.

Vapor automatics of the weapon provides firing rate up to 700 shots per minute. When using an 10-inch barrel, the initial bullet velocity exceeds 740 m / s. The target range of the weapon is 300 m. It is stated that when shooting at such distances, the KAC PDW is not inferior to other modern American rifle systems using the 5,56x45 cartridge mm.

The KAC PDW shooting complex was first introduced in the 2006 year and has since been repeatedly demonstrated at various weapon shows. The weapon was offered to customers in two configurations that differ from each other in barrel length. The promotional materials focused on the favorable ratio of the size of the weapon and its firepower. In particular, it was argued that when folded, the KAC PDW does not prevent the fighter from leaving the combat vehicle, but allows him to immediately enter into a firefight with the enemy.

However, it seems, the project Knight's Armament Co. PDW suffered the same fate as many other original developments in the field of small arms, including the Personal Defense Weapon class. Eight years have passed since the first demonstration of the KAC PDW submachine gun, but so far no reliable information about the procurement of these weapons by the armed forces or security forces has appeared. According to some reports, police departments of several US states have shown interest in KAC PDW and even expressed a desire to test this weapon in practice. However, until now, the KAC PDW system and the cartridge 6х35 mm TSRW have not been adopted anywhere.

Admittedly, the KAC PDW weapon is of some technical interest. Engineers company Knight's Armament Co. managed to create a weapon with firepower, close to automatic rifles, in the dimensions of a submachine gun. In addition to the characteristics of this system, it should also be noted an interesting approach to the layout of weapon units. In terms of its architecture, the KAC PDW is reminiscent of the M16 and M4 rifles in service, which probably should somewhat simplify the training of shooters and the use of weapons. However, these interesting features of the KAC PDW, it seems, could not interest potential customers and help the weapon to reach mass production.

On the materials of the sites:
http://knightarmco.com/
http://defensereview.com/
http://armoury-online.ru/
http://raigap.livejournal.com/

Information

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erased

+4

14 August 2014 10: 13

The KAC PDW project was implemented in the USSR in the form of AKSU. The result was an almost complete rejection by the army, since in terms of its characteristics it was greatly inferior to the linear AK-74. Later, in the Russian Federation, the AK-102/104/105 branch with a slightly longer trunk was created. True, under standard cartridges. I think these are more successful options, especially if you can put grenades on them. That is, to bring the barrel length somewhere to 330-350 mm instead of 314.
The 5,45x39 cartridge is still rather weak, even the latest version is 7n24. I don’t know how we do, but in the West they have already created two cartridges 6,8X45 and 6,5X38 Grendel (made on the basis of 7,62X39). It seems that their characteristics are closer to 7,62 at least in stopping power and penetration. It would be interesting to look at the AK74M and even at the AK-12 under such a cartridge.
1. gross kaput
  
  +3
  
  14 August 2014 11: 23
  
  Quote: erased
  The result was an almost total rejection by his army
  
  Well, no matter how you put everything together - in the airborne forces, where they wanted to shove it, it really turned out it wasn’t needed (like AKMSU), and it was PDW that was needed, it took root, for the same helicopter pilots in Afghanistan it was the best option between APS and AK74, they even specially produced a plastic femoral holster for AKSU.
  Well, how would 7n24 relate to cartridges with an armor-piercing core if insanity doesn’t change my core there from tungsten carbide - such a bullet means it will never be massive, and it seems like the standard ones are still 7N10 with increased penetration with a U8 steel core.
  1. padonok.71
    
    0
    
    14 August 2014 12: 53
    
    "Ubl.yudki", where they used to be in the army: rear services, panzermans, medicine, mortelmans, and so on, and so on.
    It is especially fun to watch them at shooting ranges - a uniform circus. We watched the shooting of kuchers with PCBs - you can tear your navel from laughter .
    I am not making fun of all these fighters, they are "not the last" people in the army. Sometimes, the same kyucher is more important than a company of goblins. I respect.
2. luiswoo
  
  +2
  
  14 August 2014 22: 11
  
  Quote: erased
  KAC Project PDW was implemented in the USSR in the form of AKSU. The result was an almost complete rejection by the army, since in terms of its characteristics it was greatly inferior to the linear AK-74. Later, in the Russian Federation, the AK-102 / 104 / 105 branch with a slightly longer trunk was created. True, under standard cartridges. I think these are more successful options, especially if you can put grenades on them. That is, to bring the barrel length somewhere to 330-350 mm instead of 314.
  
  Almost everything falls under this category under 9x39 (based on practical range). Originally from the USSR, too. But he is more for the police. And for the army, AKSU, as it was a stub, so will be a stub, so don’t do anything with it. These 330-350 mm will not give anything, the AK-74 itself has less 100 mm than necessary, what can we say about its core. If you need a compact machine for a standard cartridge, then this is a bullpup with a normal barrel length and nothing else (well, or produce a zoo of cartridges of different calibers).
  By the way, a good idea about the length of the barrel under 5.45x39:
  http://forum.militaryparitet.com/viewtopic.php?pid=31586#p31586
  1. Droid
    
    0
    
    15 August 2014 11: 31
    
    Almost everything under 9x39 (based on practical range) falls into this category.
    
    It does not get there at all, due to the ballistics of 9x39.
    the AK-74 mm itself is 100 less than necessary,
    
    The barrel length of the AK74 is as much as you need, you just have to look at the rapidly spreading M4. What the Americans have come to (a fairly compact full-fledged automatic machine) we have had since 49 of the year.
    By the way, a good idea about the length of the barrel under 5.45x39:
    
    The idea of both the length of the barrel and the cartridge is at least controversial.
    1. luiswoo
      
      0
      
      16 August 2014 01: 02
      
      It does not get there at all, due to the ballistics of 9x39.
      
      With an 150 mm barrel, blaming the cartridge ballistics is somewhat strange. Although even with such a + silencer, CP3 is quite up to 150 meters. If 5,7x28 with a silencer spits at least 50 meters, this will be an achievement.
      The barrel length of the AK74 is as much as you need, you just have to look at the rapidly spreading M4. What the Americans have come to (a fairly compact full-fledged automatic machine) we have had since 49 of the year.
      
      And from the same year we do not have an automatic rifle as a class, unlike.
      The idea of both the length of the barrel and the cartridge is at least controversial.
      
      The idea of throwing n lard of cartridges 5,45x39 into the landfill from the depot replacing them with something else is certainly more reasonable than a bulp-papp with elongated trunks, yes, otherwise ...
      1. Droid
        
        0
        
        16 August 2014 08: 28
        
        With a 150 mm barrel, blaming the cartridge ballistics is somewhat strange.
        
        With an initial speed of 290 m / s, you can not remember about the length of the barrel. Absolutely.
        CP3 quite reaches up to 150 meters.
        
        At these 150 m the bullet flies for more than 0,5 seconds, and since the standard sight on the CP-3 is 100/200 m, it will be possible to hit 150 m only by growth. For with a sight of 200 the excess will be 47 cm, and with a sight of 100 a drop of 45 cm.
        And from the same year we do not have an automatic rifle as a class, unlike.
        
        You are confused in terms. M16 is a machine, according to our classification. And according to the American AK74, this is a rifle, the same as the M16. And we call an automatic rifle a rifle for a rifle cartridge of normal caliber. M14, G3, FN FAL these are automatic rifles. And we don’t need such kindness.
        The idea of throwing 5,45x39 rounds of n lard ammunition into a landfill, replacing them with something else
        
        This is an idiotic thought. At the moment, 5,45 is the best submachine gun of all standing in service. Nobody has anything better yet.
        long papp bull
        
        The thought of the same category as about throwing 5,45. No one needs an elongated barrel and a bullpup is also not needed.
        
        luiswoo
        
        +1
        
        16 August 2014 10: 30
        
        With an initial speed of 290 m / s, you can not remember about the length of the barrel. Absolutely.
        
        Does the barrel length no longer affect the initial velocity of the bullet?
        You are confused in terms. M16 is a machine, according to our classification. And according to the American AK74, this is a rifle, the same as the M16. And we call an automatic rifle a rifle for a rifle cartridge of normal caliber. M14, G3, FN FAL these are automatic rifles. And we don’t need such kindness.
        
        AK-74 is an automatic carbine (shortened gun, automatic), not a rifle (sirech threaded gun). M4 carbine and M16 rifle well-established names too.
        No one needs an elongated barrel and a bullpup is also not needed.
        
        The recently adopted ADF and not FAMAS, Tavor, Steyr AUG, FN 2000, ... are already loaded for re-melting?
        
        Droid
        
        0
        
        16 August 2014 10: 48
        
        Does the barrel length no longer affect the initial velocity of the bullet?
        
        Do not forget about the powder charge. The difference in the length of the barrel AK74 and RPK74 is 17,5 cm (1,42 times), and the difference in initial velocity is only 60 m / s (1,067 times).
        9x39 is originally a subsonic cartridge and as a trunk do not lengthen the speed will not increase much.
        The AK-74 is an automatic carbine (shortened gun, automatic), not a rifle (in other words, a rifled gun). M4 carbine and M16 rifle are well-established names too.
        
        Well-established names do not change the essence. AK74 and M16 weapons of the same class, with equal ballistics, weight and size characteristics, etc.
        
        Our recently adopted ADF
        
        Nobody needs special weapons except for combat swimmers.
        Famas, Tabor, Steyr AUG, FN 2000
        
        They have nothing to do with us. And we don’t need a bullpup.
        
        luiswoo
        
        +1
        
        16 August 2014 12: 41
        
        Do not forget about the powder charge. The difference in the length of the barrel AK74 and RPK74 is 17,5 cm (1,42 times), and the difference in initial speed total 60 m / s (1,067 times).
        9x39 is initially a subsonic cartridge and as a trunk do not lengthen it will not increase much speed].
        
        This is for a small-caliber bullet total, and for a normal caliber this is quite a result. Moreover, we are talking about 9x39, with narrow narrow, heavy bullet. For example, it has a completely analogue of itself .458 SOCOM, which has a wider range: from the same heavy subsonic 304.8 m / s to the light supersonic bullet 655 m / s. True, this was achieved on the M4, where as we remember not the 150 mm barrel.
        Well-established names do not change the essence. AK74 and M16 weapons of the same class,
        with equal ballistics
        weight and size characteristics, etc.
        
        With a similar, up to three hundred meters.
        Nobody needs special weapons except for combat swimmers.
        
        SVU, "Exhaust", KSVK, VS-121, OTs-14, OTs-44 - let's list who doesn't need them?
        They have nothing to do with us. And we don’t need a bullpup.
        
        It sounds somehow ambiguous - either sadness, or bravado ...
        
        Droid
        
        0
        
        16 August 2014 13: 12
        
        This is for a small-caliber bullet of everything, but for a normal caliber this is quite a result.
        
        For a normal caliber, this is only 30 m / s difference between AKM and RPK, 25 m / s between PM and APS, despite all the difference in barrel length.
        True, this was achieved on the M4, where, as we remember, not a 150 mm barrel.
        
        This was achieved, as we recall, another cartridge - supersonic.
        With a similar, up to three hundred meters.
        
        All 800 is not much different. Even the drift of 10 mph by 800 m differs by only 2 cm, despite the higher initial speed of the heavier M885 bullet.
        SVU, "Exhaust", KSVK, VS-121, OTs-14, OTs-44 - let's list who doesn't need them?
        
        Actually, in addition to a few special forces, no one. By their mass production, all these samples do not even reach the PPD-40, which in itself was a rarity.
        It sounds somehow ambiguous - either sadness, or bravado ...
        
        Life truth. The army is not a kindergarten - I want a toy.
padonok.71

+5

14 August 2014 10: 19

The extra unit in the weapon system, thanks to the original cartridge. If the cartridge were standard (5.56), then yes. And they will bother with the adjustment of the release of new ammunition, for the sake of such a narrow niche, no one will. Expensive, long, difficult, unification breaks down, supply chains.
Somehow, I think so.
1. gross kaput
  
  +1
  
  14 August 2014 11: 04
  
  Well Duc the repetition of the fate of the FN P90 is an interesting toy, but the cartridge is very own and even hefty "niche", so the Belgians (or rather, the French, for the FN had already entered the ZhIAT) had to make a variant under 9X19, and it seems even who bought a little. but in general, the bullet there is interesting - I don't even know what type it should be.
  1. padonok.71
    
    0
    
    14 August 2014 12: 13
    
    Is it from the SS190?
    FN P90 - VERY toy. For the police, no matter where else it went, but for the army - no way. And they transferred him to Parabellum, precisely under the police. Netherlands 250 sets bought And yet, so little things.
    1. gross kaput
      
      0
      
      14 August 2014 12: 47
      
      there is no one from 6X35, these chambers are made only by hornadi and equips only with these bullets.
2. gross kaput
  
  0
  
  14 August 2014 13: 07
  
  Well, they had close projects - the Koltovo CAR-15 SMG, CAR-15 Survival Rifle, M609, XM177, M733 and M933, well, M231 can be attributed to syudot, but somehow it didn’t work out, and it’s easier for them non-combatants PP arm under 9X19 - the benefit is a full-time cartridge chamber and there is MP-5 in the troops.
Major_Vortex

0

14 August 2014 10: 29

I looked at their website for the price of the flame arrester for this weapon, and was horrified:

http://www.knightarmco.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=11&produc

ts_id = 93 - $437.50 (!)

Is this flame arrester worth so much or is all the weapons in the collection?
1. padonok.71
  
  0
  
  14 August 2014 12: 39
  
  Beautiful, like. Gilded probably.
  1. Major_Vortex
    
    0
    
    14 August 2014 12: 53
    
    For 437 bucks, it can be gold. In vain only painted
    1. padonok.71
      
      0
      
      14 August 2014 13: 12
      
      To disguise, that would not shine. Otherwise, all the Taliban will do such a thing for the lucky winner of such a thing.
      1. Major_Vortex
        
        +1
        
        14 August 2014 13: 19
        
        Quote: padonok.71
        To disguise, that would not shine. Otherwise, all the Taliban will do such a thing for the lucky winner of such a thing.
        
        I unscrewed such a flame arrester from a knocked out "peacemaker" with PDW, went, handed it over to a pawnshop ... and with the proceeds bought a Kalash with zinc cartridges - BUSINESS!
2. Assistant
  
  +1
  
  14 August 2014 20: 00
  
  Is this flame arrester worth so much or is all the weapons in the collection?
  
  So when I read the article, the question arose: a 6x35 mm cartridge with a bottle sleeve with a barrel length of 203,2 mm. How's all the gunpowder time to burn? What is it worth its weight in gold: the powder used or the flame arrester?
  1. Major_Vortex
    
    0
    
    14 August 2014 23: 38
    
    A flame arrester will not help such a weapon. A short barrel casing with powerful ammunition will overheat very quickly.
    
    The chamber of the KAC PDW is not at all weak against the background of .223 Rem (5,56 × 45 mm NATO):
vomag

0

14 August 2014 11: 45

Yes, this machine is just a bunch of compromises and a desire to embrace the immense, and of course a cartridge that I’m not thinking about anything (Cartridge 6.8x43 SPC) would help the implementation of their "grandiose" plans .... but about helicopter pilots and, say, drivers of various kinds of BM a good idea....
SIT

0

14 August 2014 12: 03

From the article - "According to some information, the TSWG cartridge in the basic configuration is equipped with a lead sheathing bullet of expansive action. Due to this, with a small caliber, a high damaging effect should be provided."

This is a correct statement, if downed helicopter pilots, crews of wrecked vehicles remaining in a foreign territory, have to shoot back from local shepherds and breathers. If this is a war with the regular army, then no one will interfere with the seizure of crews by putting bulletproof vests on the entire platoon, about which the expansive bullet will simply flatten without breaking through them.
1. gross kaput
  
  0
  
  14 August 2014 12: 49
  
  I laid out the previous picture of Evoyka’s bullet there - personally, I still couldn’t clearly attribute it to any class.
padonok.71

+1

14 August 2014 12: 37

Another observation from personal experience. The crews jump out of the wrecked (especially the burning) car "in the chom", no one remembers any packing. Therefore, the personal self-defense weapons of the crews must be attached directly to the person. And after an emergency abandonment, no one does not enter into any "skirmishes" (as a rule, the state after being hit does not allow), but strive to retreat as quickly as possible under the cover of their infantry. And they, of course, are very worried about their "fuel oil bolts", they try to cut off, break through the corridor, rescue teams are sent out.
All this applies to cars; for flyers, the specifics are different. There, as a rule, there is no one to jump out already. Unfortunately...
1. gross kaput
  
  +1
  
  14 August 2014 12: 52
  
  A true cowboy from Afghanistan
  
  here is such a fashionable plastic holster under AKSU
  1. padonok.71
    
    0
    
    14 August 2014 13: 07
    
    Beasts! Watch scary! Hubschrauberpilotera, third, from left, Anfield? Scary people!
brn521

0

14 August 2014 13: 11

Quote: erased
The KAC PDW project was implemented in the USSR as AKSU

And it turned out nonsense, because the cartridge and details of the older brother were used. The situation in the USSR with cartridges was especially bad. It seems that it was easier to master the moon than to develop and put cartridges for production for a specific task. And if there are no cartridges, there are no weapons.
Quote: padonok.71
bother with the adjustment of the release of new ammunition, for the sake of such a narrow niche, no one will

The niche is not so narrow. A significant part of the army does not need full-fledged combat models, but to be honest, it does not really know how to shoot. It makes no sense to give them a full-fledged military weapon. Leave almost unarmed, with pistols, too. A gun is a mockery, like shoot yourself, but don’t give up. We need a weapon, on the one hand, compact, on the other - able to compete with more serious models at a short distance. Lightweight, unpretentious (they will only be cleaned on major holidays), with little impact, a capacious but compact store, an effective firing range of 300, or at least 200 meters, the ability to fire with one hand. The Uzi will not work, it is heavy, rather bulky, it has a weak cartridge, and 200 meters is more likely to have a maximum range than effective. APS is interesting, but expensive, and flies for the same reason, at 200 meters they only scare the raven. So all kinds of samples are created, like the FN P90, under their cartridges. So there is a niche, and it is always relevant.
Well, KAC PDW seems to fly by, judging by the layout, they aimed not at buttons / lever presses and paper pickers, but at specialists. Therefore, and opportunities for body kit, nafig not needed, and the price is ruined. So the sample has sunk into history.
1. SIT
  
  +2
  
  14 August 2014 14: 28
  
  Quote: brn521
  We need a weapon, on the one hand, compact, on the other - able to compete with more serious models at a short distance. Lightweight, unpretentious (they will only be cleaned on major holidays), with little impact, a capacious but compact store, an effective firing range of 300, or at least 200 meters, the ability to fire with one hand
  
  Why then such a weapon such a powerful cartridge as TSWG? At 200m, the TT cartridge worked perfectly in PPS and PPSh. In addition, given the stressful situation in which it is planned to use this device by its owner, wearable ammunition will play a big role there, as expense will be with fear to the maximum. To make a modern PP under this cartridge and equip them with all who need to dump blasting out of broken equipment. The weapon will be simple and unpretentious, and since you can take a lot of rounds, the battle will not end after 30 seconds, unlike super powerful rounds that will fly away at the indicated time and it is unlikely that the thread will go except planet Earth.
2. padonok.71
  
  0
  
  14 August 2014 14: 29
  
  For all these tasks that you have listed, "stumps" of normal automatic machines or "remakes", under the existing cartridge, are perfect. Why do they need PDV? So the niche for PDV is not very small, but VERY small, "carriers", flyers, (with a big stretch) special aircrafts and perhaps that's all.
3. Droid
  
  +1
  
  15 August 2014 11: 05
  
  The situation in the USSR with cartridges was especially bad.
  
  Especially with 5,45, which is the best automatic rifle cartridge in service.
  
  The niche is not so narrow. A significant part of the army does not need full-fledged combat models, but to be honest, it does not really know how to shoot. It makes no sense to give them a full-fledged military weapon.
  
  This is absolutely true. It was for them that the AKS74U was made.
  We need a weapon, on the one hand, compact, on the other - able to compete with more serious models at a short distance.
  
  On the one hand you need, and on the other how to look.
  The tragedy of MPE is that these weapons under a special cartridge should be produced in large quantities, and should not be applied. Any weapon, be it a rifle, machine gun, pistol or submachine gun, is created for use. Let the gun and the PP be used by the police, not the army, but they will be used. And only the MPE (along with the cartridge) is created in order to lie in the package before decommissioning. And the question arises - will it not be bold to have its own cartridge for weapons that are not planned to be used? Isn’t it easier to give them a shortcut like AKS74U?
Victor-cort

0

14 August 2014 13: 22

Many people mistakenly attribute shortened assault rifles to PDW, and in vain, because PDW is not a replacement for an assault rifle but a replacement for a pistol (for it, the pistol, the combat effectiveness in modern combat is zero).
At the moment, only Germans did the working PDW (HK MP7 PDW). Even the P90 has already gone beyond PDW and is used only as a PP.
All the rest of "PDW" like the one presented here is just an attempt to cash in on the sonorous name.
1. Assistant
  
  0
  
  14 August 2014 20: 07
  
  At the moment, only Germans did the working PDW (HK MP7 PDW).
  
  SR-2 "Veresk". It is not used as a PDW (self-defense weapon), it is used as an assault weapon by special units.
  1. Droid
    
    0
    
    15 August 2014 11: 09
    
    Heather poorly performs the functions of MPE. The only weapon that fully meets the MPE title is the German MP7.
gross kaput

0

14 August 2014 13: 53

Quote: Victor-Cort
Many mistakenly attribute shortened machines to PDW, and in vain, because PDW is not a replacement for a machine gun but a replacement for a gun

And what is such a separate class of firearms like PDW? I know the gun, I know the machine gun, I know the submachine gun, but I hear about a separate type of PDW for the first time. so while there are no clear established criteria all the chatter about - this is a real PDW! and this does not meet Aryan standards, and therefore, under-PDW is nothing more than a concussion.
1. Droid
  
  +1
  
  15 August 2014 11: 12
  
  There is. Simply put, this is a weapon of self-defense not shooters, light and compact, to constantly have on the body, quite effective up to 200 meters and allowing, if necessary, to shoot with one hand at the pistol. At the moment, only MP7 corresponds to this.
Massik

0

14 August 2014 20: 56

Well, in short, by turns, but letting the enemy at a distance of 100-150m will be very short-sighted, it's rather the weapon of the last chance - to sell life more expensive ...
Deff

-1

14 August 2014 21: 46

http://www.airsoft-squared.com/ru/review/333/we-tech-pdw-review
1. gross kaput
  
  0
  
  14 August 2014 22: 41
  
  Is it airsoft hair? you an hour by a forum were not mistaken?
brn521

0

15 August 2014 14: 20

Quote: Marssik
Well, in short, by turning, but letting the enemy at a distance of 100-150m

So that's the problem. Is it possible to do something comfortable to wear (light weight, compact), under a cheap cartridge, but so that at 200m it was possible to put bullets in the chest target, at 300m in height.
Quote: Assistant
SR-2 "Veresk". How PDW (Self Defense Weapon) does not apply

There the cartridge is expensive, and more pistol than the other. And that means the corresponding efficiency.
Quote: Victor-Cort
At the moment, only Germans did the working PDW (HK MP7 PDW)

In Norway, it was adopted, namely in military units, which means it was used. That's just the cartridge is not very successful. It should be more powerful, at least 5,7x28. It is still bad that it is not possible to reduce the pace to 600-700 h / min. 900 is too much already, it will normally work only if there are large-capacity stores.
Quote: Victor-Cort
Even the P90 has already gone beyond PDW and is used only as a PP.

He has an interesting layout. Nothing sticks out anywhere, nothing clings. And a 50 round magazine. I just suspect that there may be a lot of problems with this store. And in a holster, like MP7 you can’t swear. In general, not enough advantages. It would also be necessary for the price not to go far from the usual Kalash.
Quote: SIT
Why then such a weapon such a powerful cartridge as TSWG? At 200m, the TT cartridge worked perfectly in PPS and PPSh.

For such a task, we need "micro-rifle" cartridges with the appropriate ballistics rather than powerful pistol cartridges. For TT 200m cartridges, it is rather a limit than a norm. It weighs, like the 5,45 cartridge, about 10g. It is expensive to manufacture with its 6g bullet, technologies become cheaper, materials become more expensive. In general, now there is a tendency: a smaller bullet, more gunpowder, a cartridge comes out cheaper and more efficient.
Quote: SIT
The weapon will be simple and unpretentious, and since you can take a lot of rounds

In the case of crashed armored vehicles, and even if it lights up, I jumped out with a gun - an achievement. What was fastened to the machine is yours. For everything else, you have to climb back, which few dare to do. Therefore, it is very desirable to have a capacious, but at the same time reliable store that does not significantly increase the dimensions of the weapon - for storage at hand. And the second version of the store, less capacious, but lightweight - for constant wear.
1. Michael HORNET
  
  0
  
  3 November 2017 18: 36
  
  Based on the results of the competition with the 9x19 carbine, the thought crept in - is there any sense at all in the pistol cartridge and pistol as such
  In fact, the pistol and its cartridge can generally be abandoned as a relic)
  
  As the main cartridge for a “personal weapon”, you can use a 6,5 mm caliber based on a modified 30 carbine sleeve, then a 6,5 g bullet will have a BC of 0.38 and at a speed of 550 m / s 300 m will be easily achieved, with a small return weapons. We will conditionally call this cartridge 6,5x30
  
  In the army, the pistol will replace the MPE with its own 6,5 × 30 cartridge, the pistol there by and large is NOT NEEDED AT ALL, since it is a purely psychological weapon, it’s really useless for anything, no one can use it
  And the MPE in the MP5K / ARS9 / Stribog format in these calibres is a very real and serious weapon that can be used for its intended purpose, and not just shoot yourself or shoot the traitor)
  Therefore, you can simply get rid of this legacy in the form of a pistol cartridge in the army, along with a gun and the effectiveness will only increase
  
  I understand that I’m saying seditious thoughts that are hard to perceive, but after looking at the results of shooting ordinary users with pistols such as military personnel and PPS, it’s clear that they are more psychological) well, at point blank range, to bang up to 7 meters
  
  On the supply, however, there will remain 3 rounds - for MPE, Automatic machine gun and machine gun
  Moreover, if we switch to a single 6,5 Grendel cartridge, then all machine guns wearable will also have an automatic cartridge, and a machine gun cartridge will remain only for machine guns at checkpoints, self-propelled platforms and equipment
  Thus, we get a single 6,5 mm caliber for PDV and Automatic / handbrake / Marxman but in different cartridges
  6,5x30 and 6,5 Grendel
  For the purposes of those who neither need to live but need a weapon in a holster - this weapon can become a 7 or 8-charge revolver under the same cartridge for MPE (so as not to produce extra cartridges on the supply)
  7 or 8 charging revolvers in the dimension of the L-frame CB with a barrel length of 72 mm and 152 mm are more than enough weapons. Reloading with clips does not yield much in speed, and the sense of a weapon without a butt in the hands of an inexperienced shooter is still very little, but at close range
  A compact model can be for those who certainly want to have a weapon in their belt holster
  1. brn521
    
    0
    
    4 November 2017 15: 21
    
    Quote: Michael HORNET
    For the purposes of those who neither need to live but need a weapon in a holster - this weapon can become a 7 or 8-charge revolver under the same cartridge for MPE (so as not to produce extra cartridges on the supply)
    7 or 8 charging revolvers in the dimension of the L-frame CB with a barrel length of 72 mm and 152 mm are more than enough weapons.
    
    Such a revolver in weight and dimensions approaches PDW with less efficiency. Plus, the PDW uses high-pressure cartridges that rely on speed rather than bullet weight. Drum mechanics do not like this. The revolver will be dangerous for the user.
    Quote: Michael HORNET
    after looking at the results of firing ordinary users of pistols such as military personnel and PPS it’s clear that they are more psychological) well, at point blank range, who bangs up to 7 meters
    
    But the fact remains: even an untrained character is much more effective with a gun than with a knife or fists. So the guns will not go anywhere. On the contrary, with the increase in the number of push-buttons, the number of pistol users will increase. If progress is not stopped, then only pistols and PDW will remain. Because in order to poke around the shelters and press the buttons more is not necessary. Training firing will be reduced to a minimum, as even with PDW it will not be necessary to hit targets further than 20m. Because if you lean out of the shelter, you will instantly be scribbled by some automated installation and in a split second will blow your brains out. As a result, shooting training in military affairs will lose relevance. No people with their PDW, just in case, will need training. Not even the technique. But it will require cartridges for turrets, which will retain their characteristics for as long as possible, so that you can create their giant supply for 50-100 years in advance. By the way, here the PDW picture is being completed at the same time: weapon stores will probably be equipped at the factory and not subject to reloading. Because these stores will be designed specifically for storing cartridges, and not for the operation of weapons. And exactly one store will be allocated for training. But the power of live ammunition really intended for war will increase sharply. they will be used in turrets, and the main goal will be enemy equipment.
brn521

+1

15 August 2014 14: 31

Quote: padonok.71
For all these tasks that you have listed, "stumps" of normal automata are perfect

AKSU means. Well, I don’t know, scolding him. It turned out neither fish nor meat. And wearing uncomfortable, and uncomfortable to shoot.
Quote: padonok.71
So the niche for PDV is not very small, but VERY small, "carriers", flyers, (with a big stretch) spetsur and perhaps that's all.

If it comes out cheaply and with a low slaughter range, then the Ministry of Internal Affairs. And this is serious. In the Ministry of Internal Affairs there is a demand for automatic weapons with a small effective range under a cheap cartridge. But AKSU is too powerful, and the PP under the Makarov cartridge is too weak. Again, a middle ground is needed, as is the case with the military. And the corresponding cartridge. True, if the military is satisfied with the small caliber, then the police need a stopping action. So you need a tricky machine gun that can eat both pointed warheads so that the effective range is larger, and police lungs are blunt, so that ricochets and lethal ranges are smaller, and the stopping action is larger.
I am writing and thinking what it was worth to solve this problem in the USSR. You look, in addition to Kalash, something else has been exported now. Maybe the designers who complained about Kalashnikov were right, that he was all under himself, crushing as a result in the USSR all the weapons design idea. As soon as someone leaned out with a proposal, a resolution was imposed: not AK, which means expensive, meaningless, etc.
Quote: Droid
The tragedy of the MPE is that these weapons under a special cartridge should be produced in large quantities, but should not be used ... And the question arises - will it not be bold to have its own cartridge for weapons that are not planned to be used?

If attached to the case of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the consumption of cartridges will be provided. And the cheapness of these cartridges will play a role. It may even be possible to fuse completely already substandard barrels under some long-barreled (a large sample of gunpowder, designed for a 20cm barrel) gun, which will be similar or cheaper to operate than the PM.
Quote: Droid
Especially with 5,45, which is the best automatic rifle cartridge in service.

The cartridge is good, I do not argue. More precisely, he became good when normal bullets began to be made under him. But far from universal. Under the problem in question, it does not fit well.
1. Droid
  
  +1
  
  15 August 2014 15: 56
  
  If attached to the case of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the consumption of cartridges will be provided.
  
  The Ministry of Internal Affairs has enough ordinary PP for the eyes under a regular pistol cartridge. In cities, even shooting at 50 meters is a huge risk of hooking an outsider, and if parts of the Ministry of Internal Affairs are used in CTOs, then they run there with normal machine guns. In ordinary police structures, the MPE range is clearly excessive.
  
  Again, a middle ground is needed, like the military. And the corresponding cartridge.
  
  There are such cartridges. Experienced so far. But I'm afraid they will remain so.
brn521

0

15 August 2014 14: 42

AKSU has a problem. The lack of a suitable cartridge for the task at hand. As a result, we get an increased mass, for example, unnecessary mufflers, flame arresters, increased return and heating. Need a less powerful cartridge (5,45 caliber, it will turn out cheaper). We look 5,7x28. A bullet, sort of like steel + aluminum, with a small slaughter range. The second is just fine for the needs of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, and then the usual AKSU was not well suited for solving police problems. So why wouldn’t we make a similar cartridge, only under 5,45? The most incomprehensible thing in 5,7x28 is its weight. I did not find anywhere. Judging by the characteristics of the FN P90, its weight is about 6 grams. If so, then this is a major achievement for a live cartridge.
There are other small-sized constructions of automatic machines, even if they are less developed and less reliable. For example, the SR-3 “Whirlwind”, that is, a nibbled Shaft, that is (or its analogs like 9A-91 and others, but it is still unknown how their design has been worked out). Could seem more interesting than AKSU, but again the problem with the cartridge. The SP6 cartridge is heavy, expensive and not effective enough due to the low speed. And the rate of fire 900 high / min, a bit too much for carob stores. But at least there is something to dance from, although the mechanics of Vala do not work well with irregular care.
Another problem is the store. Carob reliable, but the dimensions are uncomfortable, protrude far beyond the arms. And you need to re-equip them periodically, otherwise there are problems with the supply of cartridges. So it’s interesting whether the screw shops brought to mind. On the one hand, equipping them is difficult and inconvenient. On the other hand, it seems like you can keep it equipped. He released the spring, and let him lie. When needed, the spring re-lifted. But it will be possible to queue 10-15 rounds of ammunition with an unopened stock in the white light. With an ammo magazine capacity of 60, it will look a little more serious than a regular Kalash. Do not catch, so scare. Just right for those shooters who are forced to open fire only in emergency situations. That's just the strength and reliability of the store in question, and the balance of arms because of such a store will shift much forward. In general, something like a small-caliber Whirlwind with a screw magazine and a butt is more comfortable. Or, say, for constant wear, carob cartridges for 20-30, and augers with deflated springs in the zashnik as spare. It’s not very clear how to squeeze out such an aggregate from them within the chest figure by 200 m from the stop :(.
In general, there would be a cartridge, gunsmiths would have something to try on. And we have either an automatic 5,45, or a special 9x39, or pistol, for pistol ranges. The choice is not enough, you won’t walk around too much. Here is the design bureau and mark time.
kplayer

+1

15 August 2014 15: 39

It is not even worth discussing some supposedly unfilled niches (PDW) in the nomenclature of small arms for military purposes, because weapons for the civilian market, including the police and all kinds of security (private military) firms, were never intended to support the troops, with the exception of the famous SR25 series sniper rifle (Mk11 mod.0 for USMC / SEAL's and the army's M110 SASS) by Knight's.
padonok.71

0

15 August 2014 15: 40

Quote: brn521
AKSU means. Well, I don’t know, scolding him. It turned out neither fish nor meat. And wearing uncomfortable, and uncomfortable to shoot.

Well, it can be worn and it’s really not convenient (for riders and flyers, where do they carry it?), And shoot - Kalash, like Kalash, which is not convenient?
Quote: brn521
If it comes out cheaply and with a low slaughter range, then the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

Why would he?
brn521

0

15 August 2014 19: 05

Quote: Droid
The Ministry of Internal Affairs has enough ordinary PP for the eyes under a regular pistol cartridge.

I have the main patrol in the city on the main street: 1-number AKSU, the second - PM + dog. So there is still a lot of AKSU where to stay in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. And it will remain until they write off due to wear. Although there is something to wear out, they hardly shoot from them.
With PP - the question is under what cartridge. Makarov cartridges appeared with a steel core, but not armor-piercing, but with a hat. Such bullets on cars are generally ineffective, when hit on steel they are easily destroyed, an unhardened core bounces. And the old lead bullets, too, did not have enough stars from the sky.
If Heather, then he has an expensive cartridge. And it is unlikely to become cheaper, since 9mm.
Quote: Droid
There are such cartridges. Experienced so far. But I'm afraid they will remain so.

Thank you, there is something to look for on the Internet. Particularly puzzling was 5,45x18 - for sure, they had sacrificed a lot of things for the sake of these 18mm sleeve lengths. Either expensive, or the characteristics are unstable, for example, they are very dependent on temperature.
Quote: padonok.71
Well, it can be worn and really not convenient (for riders and flyers, where are they wearing it then?)

Offer flyers PM and TT a choice, as in Afghanistan? AKSU is no longer a personal weapon; it is supposed to dwell in the pyramid. APS was not offered, for some other needs was reserved.
In general, FIG knows him, maybe there really is nothing to be wise, it's not about us the whole thing.
Quote: padonok.71
and shoot - Kalash, like Kalash, which is not convenient

They scolded him for scattering. But this is understandable, it’s easier and the barrel is short, but the cartridge is still the same.
Quote: padonok.71
Why would he?

A big-bellied peasant of a general kind? New weapons - new kickbacks. It is unlikely that the Ministry of Internal Affairs over the past 10 years in this regard, something has changed.
Why do ordinary patrols? I do not know. For example, there is a rusty sawn-off shotgun, but I also want a machine that is compact and with a large magazine that normally hangs under a jacket, doesn’t stick out too much, and punches collectors well. To know from whom this machine can be removed. Well, this is from the series why the extreme low position of the fuse is single. In order that the frightened sodate, having pulled out the fuse, did not shoot all the cartridges, but left it as a trophy for the one who frightened him.
By the way, in theory, this PDW itself needs an automatic fuse to provide a combination of security and maximum speed of use, otherwise what kind of DW.
Quote: kplayer
Discussing some supposedly unfilled niches (PDW) in the nomenclature of small arms for military purposes is not even worth it, because weapons for the civilian market, including the police and various security (private military) firms, were never supposed to provide troops

Well, what, for example, is an APS? They tried to create something with characteristics similar to PDW, but everything rested on a dead Makarovsky cartridge. So the niche was and is, just if you wish, all the niches can be filled with a certain minimum, such as a combination of Nagans + three-ruler. We need something more powerful and more efficient than APS, and more comfortable than AKSU. And it’s cheap to operate, which is why samples fly under 9mm caliber.
1. Droid
  
  0
  
  15 August 2014 19: 20
  
  Well, this is from the series why the extreme low position of the fuse is single. In order that the frightened sodate, having pulled out the fuse, did not shoot all the cartridges, but left it as a trophy for the one who frightened him.
  
  Low position single fire for one simple reason - because. It happened. The troops wanted AB in the lower position, but a lot of AKs were released in a few years and they did not allow the translator to allow two identical machine guns with different positions in the troops. So they stayed forever with the original version.
2. Droid
  
  +1
  
  15 August 2014 19: 29
  
  Thank you, there is something to look for on the Internet.
  
  Arms magazine from issue 9 of 2008
Keigan

0

19 September 2014 18: 14

Droid "This is an idiotic thought. At the moment the 5,45 is the best submachine gun cartridge of all in service. Nothing better yet." The 5,45 cartridge is an order of magnitude worse than the 7,62, it wins only in the firing range, although the bullet ricochets from almost every branch (verified by experience), if you shoot in the forest, there is no stopping effect at all. People who fought in Chechnya explain that firing from 74 AKs they could not stop fleeing militants, under drugs or just fanatics, only if they hit the head or heart, so they got trophy AKMs and a 7,62 mm bullet fired militants from the first shot, just from - for the stopping action of the bullet. The cartridge 6,8 × 43 mm, wins both in range and in stopping action, the recoil is not much higher, but the power is 7,62x39 at a distance of 5,56x45. And in general, Kalashnikov said that they did not have time to reveal all the advantages of the cartridge 7,62, when the government decided to create 5,45, he believes that the AKM is more powerful and more reliable, better in combat x-kam, only in range it is inferior, well, a little in accuracy to the AK-74. Even a 5,45 NATO one with similar range and accuracy has a greater stopping effect.
1. Droid
  
  0
  
  19 September 2014 18: 44
  
  The 5,45 cartridge is an order of magnitude worse than 7,62
  
  Do not make me laugh. It was verified that a person who considers himself smarter than all the specialists of TsNIITOCHMASH, GRAU and weapons designers does not understand anything in the theory of shooting.