FZ6R vs FZ6 Dyno Comparison

[Ploppity Drown]

I had seen it claimed (on a non-FZ forum) that the FZ6R's added low- and mid-range power made up for it's lack of top-end. That the "area under the curve" was equal or better on the FZ6R vs the FZ6. Seemed plausible. But nowhere could I find a dyno chart comparing the two bikes directly. Maybe it's buried in the archives somewhere here.

In any case, I decided to put together my own comparison. I analyzed dyno charts of the 09 FZ6R (.pdf) and the 04 FZ6 (.pdf) published by Motorcycle Consumer News.

Now I understand the number of variables that affect a dyno chart's accuracy.. so I won't claim these dynos are comparable with absolute precision. But since the peak outputs of ~65hp and ~85hp are pretty well agreed upon, I think this comparison is meaningful. And here it is:

The FZ6R definitely holds a slight advantage at low RPMs---perhaps as much as 5hp around 2000 RPM but tapering off by 4000 RPM. And where the FZ6 dips between 5500 and 7200 RPM the FZ6R stays linear. But without a doubt, the FZ6 has more area under the curve---unless you never rev it above 10K RPM... but why wouldn't you? An extra 5hp on the low end and in the middle is nice, sure. But in my mind the retune is defnitely a detune.

I realize this topic has been beaten to death. But I wanted to at least post this chart here to clear up some of the confusion and misinformation out there. I'm posting this over on FZ6-Forum, too.

Any thoughts?

 

[Fenixgoon]

horsepower is meaningless without the accompanying torque curve. need both to properly describe engine performance. offhand, you can say the FZ6R has equal (or slightly better) mid-range torque and sacrifices top-end power. unless you're racing, how much do the last 3000rpm matter?

not saying i wouldn't appreciate more performance, just that most people won't take advantage of it (probably less so in bikes, but definitely in cars...99% of people aren't going to touch 10/10)

 

[CDN6R]

OK I'll bite,,Not so many years ago I would read ALL the bikes mags I could find on the latest 600 or 750 Super Sport comparisons,tests etc to see who was the top dog. Hence at the time for me I loved the Suzuki GSXR 750 series and had a new '86 then a new to me, ex super bike '91, and all was right with the world. Now last year I purchased my 1st new bike since my old GSXR that I sold in January 1996 (birth of my son) and I could not be happier. Sure it has 20 less H.P. than the original FZ6,but at this stage of my life,,,,,, who cares? I really like the fact that my 6R has CONTROLABLE horse power,,nice linear torque curve that does not scare the hell out of me when I open up the butterflies. Sure I can get in trouble with it, it is faster than most 600 of mid eighties vintage but the engine is such a gem with the fuel injection managment,really decent handling etc. The FZ6 maybe on paper a better bike,after all aluminum frame,swingarm, more H.P. but to me the 6R kills it in looks and ease of operation. I have read a few articles that the FZ6 does have a few quirks especially with part throttle responce ,,where the 6R shines. It all really come down to what YOU want. A few years ago I would have scoffed the 6R just because the FZ6 was "a better bike" in my then narrow minded view. Now that I am older (alot!!) having the top dog does not mean to me now what it used to. I don't want to ride fast any more and see if I can get a knee down,, I just want to nice sporty motorcycle that has good acceleration,good brakes, and will corner nicely. To me it is kind of like having a Italian Sports car,,, I want something that responds to my every input , that makes me feel confident and do it in style. I was afraid when I got back to biking last year that a cruiser would have to be my only choice because of my short inseam. Every sport bike I sat on was way to high for me, CBR 600, R6, ZX6R etc and the only one that I could touch the ground on without needing a lowering kit was the 6R. I for one,am happy to have it in my garage.

 

[Ploppity Drown]

Don't get me wrong here, guys. I think the FZ6R is a great bike. I'm still very interested in buying one. I just can't agree that a few HP here and there makes up for the missing top end. It's an oversquare 4-cylinder. It was never meant to make great low- and midrange power. If you want a strong low- and mid-range, you're better off with a totally different layout---e.g. a long-stroke twin. I can only conclude that Yamaha's goal was to make the FZ6R more marketable to beginners.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

I rode one last weekend and really liked it... And I am definitely still a beginner. The ergos are comfortably neutral. The plush supsension makes it a great real-world sportbike. The engine is counter-balanced well, with no perceivable vibration. And the powerband is linear and predictable. Altogether it's a nicely balanced package.

I just want to make it clear to prospective buyers that the new engine was significantly detuned for a marginal bump in low- and midrange power. That fact is obfuscated by Yamaha's marketing, and it would piss me off if I found out after the fact.

 

[Ploppity Drown]

horsepower is meaningless without the accompanying torque curve. need both to properly describe engine performance. [...]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Horsepower = Torque X RPM / 5252.

I've shown you HP vs RPM. From that you can derive Torque... likewise if I gave you Torque vs RPM you could derive HP.

At any given RPM, if one engine makes more Horsepower, it makes more Torque, too. And vice versa. What more do you need to know?

 

[CDN6R]

I have said this before in other posts,,IMHO the FZ6R is not the best choice as a starter motorcycle. I am old school and I know more now about choices than I did when I was 21. My first bike was a 77 Honda CB 750 K which had about 55 H.P., weighed about 530 LBS and bought this with absolutely no experience at all. That was a dumb thing to do. At the time people told me that the Honda was a monster and to be careful. I learned the basics of riding in a friends backyard and got my licence the next Spring following a motorcycle safty course. Later that summer I sold the Honda CB (really it was just to big for me the to handle and the seat was to high) and bought a CX 500 Custom. To me the FZ6R is a good bike to get after you have had some experience on say a small dirt bike or a CBR 125 R or a Ninja 250 R. Now about the H.P. difference,, if your friends ride like Squids on CBR 600 RR`s Yamaha R6`s or GSXR 600`s then this bike (FZ6R) will have a hard time keeping up so I am afraid that your friends should slow down,, for you. The 6R gives up 20 H.P. on the top(than the FZ6) for better performance in the mid range which to me is a good thing because that is where you need the power for street use. Now I get the impression that you are trying to choose a bike for you,wether it would be the FZ6R, FZ6 or something else. (I could be wrong,I have been many times before!!) Do what your gut says. That is which ever bike stirrs your soul,, buy it.

 

[Chucker]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Horsepower = Torque X RPM / 5252.

I've shown you HP vs RPM. From that you can derive Torque... likewise if I gave you Torque vs RPM you could derive HP.

At any given RPM, if one engine makes more Horsepower, it makes more Torque, too. And vice versa. What more do you need to know?

Forgive me if I'm too stupid to understand this, but if this is the case, why is the HP:torque ratio not the same for all engines? i.e. - do all 250HP engines have the same torque at all RPMs?

 

[Marthy]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Horsepower = Torque X RPM / 5252.

I've shown you HP vs RPM. From that you can derive Torque... likewise if I gave you Torque vs RPM you could derive HP.

At any given RPM, if one engine makes more Horsepower, it makes more Torque, too. And vice versa. What more do you need to know?

All you mesure on a dyno is torque! Horsepower is calculated... So for a given engine, if you want to improve one, you will loose on the other... no way out. The 6R is the best example. Better mid range, but it did cost few ponies on top!

 

[jjb]

Forgive me if I'm too stupid to understand this, but if this is the case, why is the HP:torque ratio not the same for all engines? i.e. - do all 250HP engines have the same torque at all RPMs?

HowStuffWorks "Measuring Horsepower"

The key thing to remember is that RPM is also in that equation. So, one engine "A" may make 250 hp at 6500 rpm (torque = hp*5252/rpm = 202 ft-lbs) , the other engine "B" might make it at 7000 rpm (torque = 187 ft-lbs),

Its a very confusing topic, I'm an engineer, and I still always have to go back and read about it to remind myself exactly what the relationship is.

Its probably in my top 5 things that confuse me:

1: Women
2: Gearing
3: Accounting
4: Torque/HP
5: Pop Culture (ie, why Jersey Shore, Lady Gaga, and other similar no talent ass-clowns and otherwise bottom of the humanity barrel-dwellers are popular)

 

[CDN6R]

Its probably in my top 5 things that confuse me:

1: Women
2: Gearing
3: Accounting
4: Torque/HP
5: Pop Culture (ie, why Jersey Shore, Lady Gaga, and other similar no talent ass-clowns and otherwise bottom of the humanity barrel-dwellers are popular :rof::rof::rof: OMG,, I love this,,it IS so true!

 

[JSP]

Don't get me wrong here, guys. I think the FZ6R is a great bike. I'm still very interested in buying one. I just can't agree that a few HP here and there makes up for the missing top end. It's an oversquare 4-cylinder. It was never meant to make great low- and midrange power. If you want a strong low- and mid-range, you're better off with a totally different layout---e.g. a long-stroke twin. I can only conclude that Yamaha's goal was to make the FZ6R more marketable to beginners.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

I rode one last weekend and really liked it... And I am definitely still a beginner. The ergos are comfortably neutral. The plush supsension makes it a great real-world sportbike. The engine is counter-balanced well, with no perceivable vibration. And the powerband is linear and predictable. Altogether it's a nicely balanced package.

I just want to make it clear to prospective buyers that the new engine was significantly detuned for a marginal bump in low- and midrange power. That fact is obfuscated by Yamaha's marketing, and it would piss me off if I found out after the fact.

You are missing a key fact with your logic. The FZ6R is NOT a new engine for the FZ6... it is NOT a retuned FZ6. It is NOT a FZ6 w/ fairings. It does NOT share any similarity to the FZ6 other than the FZ6 in its name.

The FZ6R is a new bike to the lineup meant to be an economical sport/standard. The engine isnt even based on the FZ6 engine. It is actually based on an older R6 design. You really cant compare them at all since it wasnt meant to be a comparison.

 

[CDN6R]

:thumbup: +1 Jay,, you are absolutely right. The only thing common is the name.

 

[Sage]

I was almost positive the only thing the 2 shared was the name, and you nailed that down. +1 Jay

 

[Superzoom]

Ploppity, thanks for posting this comparison. I'm glad I've finally seen the actual difference in performance between the FZ6 and FZ6R.

However, I draw a different conclusion from the comparison than you, both objectively and subjectively.

Yes, the FZ6 curve has more area under the curve, meaning it has higher average HP overall. But the FZ6R has more HP at any RPM below 8750, which is where I do 90% of my riding. For my purposes, that is good. For fast back road riding or the track, not so good.

Secondly, the FZ6 curve is the definition of "peaky" power. Power peaks on top, but also is non-linear in other spots, rising and falling, while the FZ6R curve is what you would describe as flat, which is ideal for most people.

But I guess to say one HP curve is better than the other is pointless, as different riders prefer different engine characteristics. For me, the FZ6R power curve works great. It's a real world engine that's nice to use even when you're not screaming in the five digit RPM range.

 

[Superzoom]

Laurie,

I completely agree with you that the FZ6R is not an ideal starter bike, but I would say that it is a better starter bike than the FZ6 due to the FZ6 having a crazy rush of top end at 9000 RPM. It's that spike in power that can cause the rear to break loose, or cause you to lose your line in a curve.

My first bike was an '82 Yamaha XS400 Midnight Special. From what I recall, it had a nice, sedate motor that seemed to chug rather than scream. I had absolutely no power-related close calls with that bike. Instead, my first ever accident involved a car that ran a very red light and caused me to low side. For me, a 400 is a better beginner bike than a 250 simply because it's more highway capable. I had a 250 that scared me on the highway because it could barely wheeze along at 100-110 kph.

I have said this before in other posts,,IMHO the FZ6R is not the best choice as a starter motorcycle. I am old school and I know more now about choices than I did when I was 21. My first bike was a 77 Honda CB 750 K which had about 55 H.P., weighed about 530 LBS and bought this with absolutely no experience at all. That was a dumb thing to do. At the time people told me that the Honda was a monster and to be careful. I learned the basics of riding in a friends backyard and got my licence the next Spring following a motorcycle safty course. Later that summer I sold the Honda CB (really it was just to big for me the to handle and the seat was to high) and bought a CX 500 Custom. To me the FZ6R is a good bike to get after you have had some experience on say a small dirt bike or a CBR 125 R or a Ninja 250 R. Now about the H.P. difference,, if your friends ride like Squids on CBR 600 RR`s Yamaha R6`s or GSXR 600`s then this bike (FZ6R) will have a hard time keeping up so I am afraid that your friends should slow down,, for you. The 6R gives up 20 H.P. on the top(than the FZ6) for better performance in the mid range which to me is a good thing because that is where you need the power for street use. Now I get the impression that you are trying to choose a bike for you,wether it would be the FZ6R, FZ6 or something else. (I could be wrong,I have been many times before!!) Do what your gut says. That is which ever bike stirrs your soul,, buy it.

 

[JSP]

Lets throw the R6 in here too... it shares 2 of the same letters in its name and all 3 are 600's (NOT recommended as a beginners bike)

 

[Marthy]

Lets throw the R6 in here too... it shares 2 of the same letters in its name and all 3 are 600's (NOT recommended as a beginners bike)

That look sexy... :thumbup:

 

[yellowfz]

The FZ6R is a great little bike , for me it fits what I was looking for , as I said before I do miss the HP but still enjoy the bike .
To me the power spike in the PB is nothing new and would use it to its fullest , knowing it is there and being able to use it is the fun in it .
Use to love when racing to know where that spike was and keep it right in that area , we called it "keeping it on the pipe" (peak area of Powerband) , the prefect spot for power and fun .

 

[Ploppity Drown]

I have said this before in other posts,,IMHO the FZ6R is not the best choice as a starter motorcycle. I am old school and I know more now about choices than I did when I was 21. My first bike was a 77 Honda CB 750 K which had about 55 H.P., weighed about 530 LBS and bought this with absolutely no experience at all. That was a dumb thing to do. At the time people told me that the Honda was a monster and to be careful. I learned the basics of riding in a friends backyard and got my licence the next Spring following a motorcycle safty course. Later that summer I sold the Honda CB (really it was just to big for me the to handle and the seat was to high) and bought a CX 500 Custom. To me the FZ6R is a good bike to get after you have had some experience on say a small dirt bike or a CBR 125 R or a Ninja 250 R. Now about the H.P. difference,, if your friends ride like Squids on CBR 600 RR`s Yamaha R6`s or GSXR 600`s then this bike (FZ6R) will have a hard time keeping up so I am afraid that your friends should slow down,, for you. The 6R gives up 20 H.P. on the top(than the FZ6) for better performance in the mid range which to me is a good thing because that is where you need the power for street use. Now I get the impression that you are trying to choose a bike for you,wether it would be the FZ6R, FZ6 or something else. (I could be wrong,I have been many times before!!) Do what your gut says. That is which ever bike stirrs your soul,, buy it.

If only I had enough money to buy whichever bike stirred my soul!

That's my problem right now.. too many bikes, not enough money, nor time to ride them. I rode a Triumph Tiger 800 at a demo event a while back and loved it. Then last weekend I went to a Yamaha demo and rode an FZ6R and an FZ8... I loved the plush suspension and vibe-free ride on the FZ6R but was more comfortable ergonomically on the 8. But footpegs and handlebars can be fixed easier than suspension and fairings. And the FZ6R is cheap, especially with all the low-mileage 09's out there.

Then yesterday I rode my Versys to work and I fell in love again. It does so many things right... fat low- and midrange, dirt-bike neutral ergos (I've installed a handlebar riser), decent wind protection with the Givi screen. The fork action is harsh, but I can fix that with a revalve. I've already softened the rear with an Eibach spring on a R1 shock. And I've got softer fork springs ready to install, too. The only incurable ill is the poorly counterbalanced/insulated engine. The buzz doesn't really bother me, it's the way it blurs the mirrors.

The Versys is my commuter, and it does a great job of it. At least, it will be once I finished customizing it to that purpose. But I wouldn't mind having a more performance-oriented bike for when I can actually ride for fun. So does it make sense that I'm gravitating towards the hotter FZ?

 

[Ploppity Drown]

You are missing a key fact with your logic. The FZ6R is NOT a new engine for the FZ6... it is NOT a retuned FZ6. It is NOT a FZ6 w/ fairings. It does NOT share any similarity to the FZ6 other than the FZ6 in its name.

The FZ6R is a new bike to the lineup meant to be an economical sport/standard. The engine isnt even based on the FZ6 engine. It is actually based on an older R6 design. You really cant compare them at all since it wasnt meant to be a comparison.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but isn't the FZ6R engine based on the same last-gen YZF-R6 engine on which the FZ6 engine was based?

The three bikes do have identical bore and stroke numbers (66.5 x 44.5 mm). In that sense I think it's natural to compare them.