What would Stranger Things look like without Winona Ryder as Joyce Byers? It’s hard to imagine. From her very first appearance in the series pilot, Joyce has been a driving force, whether she’s relentlessly searching for her son or uncovering Russian plots to take over Hawkins. But speaking to Krista Smith in a new episode of the podcast Skip Intro, Stranger Things creators Matt and Ross Duffer reveal that Ryder’s contributions actually run so deep that, without her, some of the show’s most famous plot points wouldn’t exist. 

“Joyce wasn’t that interesting of a character until we cast Winona,” Matt Duffer says. “She’s such a unique actress that we wanted to lean into her skill set. So she became Richard Dreyfuss in Close Encounters [of the Third Kind], and that’s where we came up with all the Christmas light stuff. I don’t know if any of that would have existed had Winona said no to the role.”

If you need a quick refresher, the Christmas lights in question were a major plot device in Season 1, used by Joyce to communicate with her son Will (Noah Schnapp) while he was trapped in the Upside Down. 

“Imagining [Winona] in all these scenarios started to open up a much more interesting character than just, like, mom who wants her kid back,” Ross Duffer adds. “That was the case for a lot of the characters in the pilot: They were the sketches of who they would become. Once we cast people, they just continue to evolve. And these actors just keep informing who the characters are.”

So ubiquitous has Ryder become in recent years that it’s easy to forget that, prior to Stranger Things, she had never appeared in a TV show. In fact, when casting director Carmen Cuba initially suggested her for the role, the Duffers weren’t convinced she’d agree to it. 

“Seven years ago, Winona wasn’t acting in a lot,” Matt says. “She’s one of those actors that we all grew up [watching] and that we all loved and had so much nostalgia for, and I missed her on screen. We were all worried whether she would agree to do television. Ross and I had had one movie that was not even released by Warner Brothers, so it’s not like we were a hot commodity.”

Matt and Ross Duffer with Winona Ryder.

Curtis Baker/Netflix

To convince her, the brothers pulled out all the stops. “We sent her this pitch document that we made that had some pretty pictures in it that had E.T. and Jaws and all the John Carpenter [films] that tried to capture the aesthetic of the show,” Matt continues. “We sent her a fake trailer for how the show would feel. We sent her the script, and then had like a four-and-a-half-hour meeting with her, which was just — it was hard to even speak because you’re sitting next to Winona Ryder and trying to be cool. She said yes. And it was amazing because I think that completely transformed the show.”

And if you’re wondering whether the Duffers are blasé about their star now that the show’s been such a hit, think again. “Even now, it’s still trippy to get a text message from Winona Ryder,” Ross says. “You never get used to it. There’s something really, really special about her. So, hopefully Stranger Things is not our last Winona [Ryder] project.”

As for what to expect in the upcoming season, which premieres on Netflix May 27, we’ll just leave you with this: “She’s always incredible, but she’s awesome in Season 4,” Ross says. “I can't wait for her people to see that.”

For more great celebrity interviews, check out Skip Intro on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Winona Ryder Breaks Down Joyce Byers of ‘Stranger Things’ Season 1