A few questions about the Ju87

[Wolferl_1791]

1. The Ju87 has an automatic vertical stabilizer which moves in sync with the flaps control. The game already nicely simulates the lever and lights operation. But looking at the plane from the outside and judging from the planes reaction, the stabilizer seems to be moving the wrong way.

 

Its purpose should be to bring the nose down, to counteract the nose-up tendency of the lowered flaps, at least from what I've read. But the way it works now in game, we get a massive nose up tendency, both from the flaps, and the stabilizer. 

Nevermind on this one. Got it figured out.

 

2. When engaging the first flaps position, a manual lever on the right of the front panel moves as well. It is labeled "Ansaugluft" which means "Intake air" and it has two labeled positions, "filtered" and "not filtered". So... what does that have to do with the flaps? I don't mind having a reminder of flaps position, but if this was a conscious decision from the devs, wouldn't it make more sense to link it to the airbrake position? Flaps are already indicated in the cockpit by lightbulbs, yet the airbrake lever resets (correctly) to 0 so I can't tell at a glance how it's set. 

 

3. Why can i enable and hear the siren even though I have not fitted the Trumpet modification?

 

4. Great job on the bomb selector panel. In VR, without a Hud, this was a pleasure to figure out. Minor request: there is a switch right of the Massenwurf/Eizelwurf, labbeled Ein ("On"). Currently it does nothing. Could this be linked to the "Bomb fuse" status of the bombs? 

 

5. Minor inconvenience, but... there are 2 sets of 2 instruments, on either side of the rudder pedals. The right ones are for oxygen, the left ones no idea. The problem is that the glass is very white and it looks very annoying, especially in low light condition. Can the reflection be removed from them?

 

6. Uhmm, I can deploy full radiator, flaps and airbrake during a dive at 600kph. Is this normal? I seriously doubt that the flimsy oil lines would be able to push against the air at that speed. I'm not talking about the "fixed" positions, but the actual travel range. Also, why don't the flaps rip off? At over 650kph the fluttering starts and I start to lose ailerons, rudder, elevators. That's awesome, but I can still deploy full flaps without any issues. Have searched the forums for this issue but I can find nothing. Also related, there's a nice touch about the Siren, that if you try to close it at more than 350kph it will not stop immediately. But it still stops, and it continues to work fine after that. I was expecting the small brake to be destroyed and the siren to never be able to stop again until landing. No such luck.

Edited April 16, 2017 by karamazovnew

[Wolferl_1791]

A bit more information about the issues. Click on the pictures for better resolution.

 

1. Horizontal Stabilizer:

 

 

In this pic you can see that when the flaps are down, the stabilizer rotates up (back edge moves up) when compared to the normal cruise attitude. This of course has the effect of pitching up the nose. Now compare this with this image, taken from this video (

):

 

 

 

As you can see, this plane is in flaps full down configuration, but the stabilizer is in the same position that in game corresponds to the "no flaps" condition. It makes perfect sense for the stabilizer to be centered for normal "no flaps" cruise, where it needs the least drag, and then to rotate down (back edge moves down) when deploying the huge flaps, to bring the nose of the aircraft down. The extra drag from the stabilizer is not a problem, since the aircraft is probably landing anyway. 

 

But in the game, these positions are reversed.

 

Immediately, this means that the reaction of the Stuka to nose up during flaps deployment is wrong (it made no sense to amplify it anyway).

 

But depending on how the game models the flight, it might also affect normal cruise flight, with no flaps, if we consider the extra drag and nose-down attitude of the stabilizer.

 

2. For more clarification, I've included a screenshot of the other items mentioned.

 

Edited April 15, 2017 by karamazovnew

[71st_AH_Mastiff]

JU87/D3. Is the model in game.

 

I have reported the siren bug many times, wait to see if they respond to your report.

 

Which model are you showing there?

Edited April 16, 2017 by 71st_AH_Mastiff

[Wolferl_1791]

JU87/D3. Is the model in game.

 

I have reported the siren bug many times, wait to see if they respond to your report.

 

Which model are you showing there?

 

It's the RAF Museum one, a G2. But see no mention anywhere about the stabilizer being changed in any way from the first to the last model. They should be similar. Also, it simply makes no sense for the stabilizer to work as it currently does in game. The whole point of it was to reduce the nose up sudden pitch when deploying flaps. Currently, it just amplifies it. 

[Wolferl_1791]

Hmm, found this, yes it's the B model... http://www.avia-it.com/act/profili_daerei/libretti_velivolo/PA_libretti_tedeschi_PDF/Ju-87%20B2.pdf turn to page 103:

 

 

I don't know german, but that looks like 0 degrees in flight, -5 degrees on landing. Directions support the behavior in game. Directions could be a typo, but I doubt it. The rest of the text might clear it out, but I don't know german. The flaps position in the museum plane might be due to wires between controls not being connected thus affected by gravity... 

 

The flaps lever is discussed around page 80, maybe some nice German player can help me figure this out. The searchable word is "hohenflosse".

Edited April 16, 2017 by karamazovnew

[Wolferl_1791]

Ok I've translated the manual with Google Translate enough to see multiple mentions of the stabilizer moving to -5 degrees when the flaps move to +25 degrees. Both are controlled by oil pressure. The aircraft in the museum has oil lines probably drained, which explains why both surfaces are down. 

 

On further thinking, I've realized that the stabilizer is not supposed to counteract the immediate nose-up attitude of the flaps, but something else entirely. The extra drag of low flaps must create a torque which would constantly push the nose down. To allow correct attitude during level flight with flaps, the Stabilizer's job would indeed be to raise the nose. Makes sense now.

 

Also, testing in game, I've flown at around 300kph, trimmed for level flight. I decreased engine power, put flaps on, slowed down to around 180 kph. I didn't retrim the plane, just forced it to remain level at all times. At around 180 kph I could release the pressure on the stick, as the previous trim setting suddenly became perfect. So the designers were right. And I have to say, I'm impressed with how the game handles this, now that I trust it's correct

Edited April 16, 2017 by karamazovnew

[Wolferl_1791]

Uhmm, I can deploy full radiator, flaps and airbrake during a dive at 600kph. Is this normal? I seriously doubt that the flimsy oil lines would be able to push against the air at that speed. I'm not talking about the "fixed" positions, but the actual travel range. Also, why don't the flaps rip off? At over 650kph the fluttering starts and I start to lose ailerons, rudder, elevators. That's awesome, but I can still deploy full flaps without any issues. Have searched the forums for this issue but I can find nothing. Also related, there's a nice touch about the Siren, that if you try to close it at more than 350kph it will not stop immediately. But it still stops, and it continues to work fine after that. I was expecting the small brake to be destroyed and the siren to never be able to stop again until landing. No such luck.

 

Added as number 6 to OP.

 

Edit: Well, it shows I'm coming from War Thunder. I've just tested both the 109 and the 190 as well, rods seem to brake at around 550-600 kph for both. It seems reasonable for the Ju87 to have more resilient control rods. But still... not sure what to think of this. I've operated the flaps at low altitude, almost ground level. I expected something to break. Being able to slam the flaps in a 109 at 500kph, abuse the trim just to get out of an impossible dive seems weird. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by karamazovnew

[Boaty-McBoatface]

Good posts bud. Interesting read.

[Yakdriver]

Not a Stuka expert at all, but when i read number 2, i think of the  Afrikan 109´s who had Tropical Filters installed.

No flaps = airborn, no need to filter air
Flaps of any kind: = we must be close to ground, dust and some other shit that needs filtering, so engage filter

Welcome to BoX!

[Gunsmith86]

 

4. Great job on the bomb selector panel. In VR, without a Hud, this was a pleasure to figure out. Minor request: there is a switch right of the Massenwurf/Eizelwurf, labbeled Ein ("On"). Currently it does nothing. Could this be linked to the "Bomb fuse" status of the bombs? 

 

 

 

 

4)

The switch on the right is the main power for the hole sytem if its turned off you can not even realease the bombs.

The switch for the bomb fuse are the 4 switches at the bottom. If they are off and you drop a bomb it does not explode. Whether the bomb explodes on impact or with delay depents on the typ of fuse that is screwed into the bomb before the flight starts.

Edited April 16, 2017 by Gunsmith86

[Wolferl_1791]

Not a Stuka expert at all, but when i read number 2, i think of the  Afrikan 109´s who had Tropical Filters installed.

 

No flaps = airborn, no need to filter air

Flaps of any kind: = we must be close to ground, dust and some other shit that needs filtering, so engage filter

 

Welcome to BoX!

 

Thanks. That was my first thought as well, except the labels show exactly the reverse. No flaps mean "filter on", flaps mean no "filter off". There has to be a reason for it and I don't mind it. What I don't particularly like is that there is no visual guide of the airbrake position. According to the manual, the B2 had some pins on the wings, similar to what other planes use to show landing gear position, that would show if the brake was On, Off, or disabled (piston broken). It's the item marked as "Anzeigebolzen" at page 93 of the previously linked manual. 

 

 

4)

JU 87 D.jpg

The switch on the right is the main power for the hole sytem if its turned off you can not even realease the bombs.

The switch for the bomb fuse are the 4 switches at the bottom. If they are off and you drop a bomb it does not explode. Whether the bomb explodes on impact or with delay depents on the typ of fuse that is screwed into the bomb before the flight starts.

 

I know how it works. But the game has no visual cue of "bombs fuse off/on" status in any cockpit, outside of the Hud (which I don't use).

 

It would be logical for the real plane to have the following switches:

- master arm for bomb system (the on off switch for the panel) which would be off to prevent any shortcircuit triggering a release. We don't have such a thing in the game. You can even release a bomb while on the runway. I've made my own master switch, as a joystick button modifier so that I don't unintentionally drop them.

- bomb selector, probably the rotary knobs in the middle to select which bombs to drop when you press the bomb release button (already working in the game with the LWin+B command, although the knobs themselves don't animate, just the black-white rectangular display)

- fuse activator switch, to allow safe jettison of the bombs in emergency. As you have noted, these are probably the lower switches. But in the game they don't change with the LWin+S fuse command). 

[Gunsmith86]

 

 

 

 

I know how it works. But the game has no visual cue of "bombs fuse off/on" status in any cockpit, outside of the Hud (which I don't use).

 

It would be logical for the real plane to have the following switches:

- master arm for bomb system (the on off switch for the panel) which would be off to prevent any shortcircuit triggering a release. We don't have such a thing in the game. You can even release a bomb while on the runway. I've made my own master switch, as a joystick button modifier so that I don't unintentionally drop them.

- bomb selector, probably the rotary knobs in the middle to select which bombs to drop when you press the bomb release button (already working in the game with the LWin+B command, although the knobs themselves don't animate, just the black-white rectangular display)

- fuse activator switch, to allow safe jettison of the bombs in emergency. As you have noted, these are probably the lower switches. But in the game they don't change with the LWin+S fuse command). 

 

I made a bug report the 4 switches should be on save after you turn bomb fuses off maybe the devs can change that in one of the future updates.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Gunsmith86

[1./KG4_Blackwolf]

Not a Stuka expert at all, but when i read number 2, i think of the  Afrikan 109´s who had Tropical Filters installed.

 

No flaps = airborn, no need to filter air

Flaps of any kind: = we must be close to ground, dust and some other shit that needs filtering, so engage filter

 

Welcome to BoX!

There's my bud! Hey want to go get in a bomber and get lost in a snow map again?.... Me neither.

Sorry don't have anything to add to the post that will help. Hope you get it sorted.